Date: Tuesday, May 13 at 9am Pacific Daylight Time
Our Guest Speaker Elizabeth Fein will present her research on how fantasy role play can be beneficial for people on the autism spectrum. While this is the first time that we have addressed the role of creative imagination in clinical psychology, we anticipate further sessions on this topic.
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Tara Ratnam shared these thoughts about framing the role-play experience as a manifestation of reincarnation:
A response to your point [Francine raised this point in the video] about reincarnation as an explanation for people believing that they are in the wrong body: In the karmic framework of Indian philosophy, especially within Vedantic and Yogic thought, the soul (ātman) is neither male nor female, neither human nor animal. It’s beyond all forms. So, the notion of being in the ‘wrong body’ assumes that the body is primary or definitive—something the karmic worldview regards as secondary. From this perspective, no “body” is inherently “right” or “wrong”, only more or less conducive to spiritual progress depending on karmic conditions. The body is a vehicle: impermanent, instrumental, and ultimately secondary to the essence of selfhood. What matters is not the alignment of identity with form, but the dis-identification from all limiting identifications, whether exalting or painful. So perhaps the question it leads to is not “Am I in the wrong body?” but “Who is the ‘I’ beyond all bodies?” The psychological and emotional experience of dissonance between felt identity and embodiment is real and meaningful in modern cultural and clinical contexts. Indian philosophy, with its spacious metaphysical lens, doesn’t negate that—it simply reorients the conversation toward liberation, not affirmation.
From Francine: I am posting messages from Tara Ratnam that can give us some insights from Indian culture. This first post discusses anthropomorphism attributing human traits to animals, plants, or inanimate objects. In the case of “furries” we have the opposite of anthropomorphism – animal traits attributed to humans. Quote “echoing a deeper mythic imagination”.
India has a rich tradition of revering anthropomorphic forms—Hanuman (monkey), Ganesha (elephant-headed), Narasimha (man-lion), and others are more than symbols—they are embodiments of cosmic truths, where the animal traits represent specific virtues: wisdom, strength, protection, or transcendence. The human-animal fusion is a way to express the interconnectedness of all life and the limitlessness of divine form. While anthropomorphism and reincarnation are distinct concepts in Indian philosophy, they intersect in profound ways—especially in how they shape our understanding of the self, the soul, and the cosmos. Anthropomorphic deities like Narasimha (man-lion) or Varaha (boar) are intentional embodiments of cosmic principles. In the mythic narrative of Dashavatara (the ten avatars of Lord Vishnu), four avatars take anthropomorphic forms: Matsya (The Fish) symbolising preservation of life and knowledge during the cosmic flood; Kurma (The Tortoise) stands for stability and support—he bore Mount Mandara on his back during the churning of the ocean; Varaha (The Boar) rescues Earth by lifting it from the depths of ocean (Pātāla). Narasimha (the man-lion), associated with strength and courage, destroyed the demon Hiranyakashipu to uphold dharma (righteousness).Here, anthropomorphism becomes a vehicle for reincarnation: the divine takes on forms that blend human and animal traits to fulfill cosmic duties across cycles of time. In the doctrine of samsara (the cycle of birth and rebirth), the soul (ātman or jīva) can be reborn in any form—human, animal, divine, or even demonic—depending on karma (universal law of cause and effect). This fluidity across species boundaries implies a shared metaphysical essence among all beings. Anthropomorphism, then, reflects this metaphysical truth: that the divine spark exists in all forms, and that human and animal traits are not rigidly separate but part of a continuum. The animal-headed gods of temples echo the trans-species journey of the soul. Here’s how I understand the shifting purpose of anthropomorphism across three domains: ancient Indian philosophy, fables such as the Panchatantra, and modern furry culture. While in Indian philosophy anthropomorphism is used to reveal the divine, fables use it to teach the human, and furry culture uses it to become the imagined self—each is a mirror. In that sense, anthropomorphic forms become tools to help us navigate meaning, morality, and identity—by reflecting, reinforcing, or reimagining our relationships: with the divine, with one another, and with ourselves. The traditional anthropomorphic deities in India continue their living presences in ritual, art, and devotion. Could they be seen, in a playful sense, as ‘proto-furries’—despite the vastly differing contexts? From this angle, the modern furry identity might not seem alien to Indian culture, but as echoing a deeper mythic imagination where the boundaries between human and animal are fluid, sacred, and expressive. So, while furry culture in India is still emerging, it resonates with deep cultural motifs—from the Panchatantra to temple iconography. The difference seems to lie in intent and context: where ancient forms were devotional or didactic, modern furry expressions are often personal, and playful. In that sense, the line between sacred symbolism and self-expression may not be as distant as it seems—only refracted through time, context, and imagination.
Fascinating, Francine. I need to read that offline, but on a single reading it made perfect sense to me, thinking a the moment about the concept of hybridity applied to human affairs. An expansion of that summary would make a great article for MCA. Lets see if a discussion can be had here, focused for the moment, or taking as its starting point.
From Francine: Fantasy identities can have a beneficial effect or be detrimental. One of the examples was the individual who crafted an identity as a “hell hound”. This was presented as a functional adaptation, at what point would it be dysfunctional? It seems we are not to be judgemental about an individual’s choice for role-playing (a hellhound would be as neutral as any other furry dog).
Just for clarification: Autism as a diagnostic category was introduced by Leo Kanner in 1943 to describe children who lacked affective contact with other people and engaged in repetitive behaviors. This is very different from “autistic thinking” as first described by Eugene Bleuler in 1907 to describe the hallucinatory delusional thinking of schizophrenics. (When Vygotsky and Piaget mention autistic thinking they are referring to Bleuler’s concept.)
Hans Asperger studies from 1944 focused on high functioning social withdrawn individuals; that in 1977 would be designated as Asperger’s Syndrome. Eventually both the DSM 4 and the ICD 9 placed Asperger’s Syndrome within the autism spectrum.
While the American Psychological Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) is widely used for diagnosis in the USA, the rest of the world would use the World Health Organization’s International Classification of Diseases (currently ICD11).
From what I understand “Neurodiversity” is a social movement that began in the 1990’s the term is credited to Judy Singer and Harold Blume.
I continue to enjoy these videos and am grateful that you all are making them for those of us who can attend and those of us cannot (thank you, Francine and all). I really like this book: NeuroTribes by Silberman. Like the TV show Astrid (give it some time — it builds — the gift of the thimble was a highlight for me and it comes well into the series …) that was mentioned in the video, this book helps make sense of some of the questions raised in the discussion. I am curious to hear what others think. Beth
Historically, Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) was underdiagnosed in India, not necessarily because it was absent, but due to systemic limitations: a scarcity of diagnostic tools, trained professionals, and deeply rooted cultural factors such as parental denial and lack of awareness. However, recognition is growing. More children are being identified at younger ages, where previously their divergence was overlooked. The current estimate suggests that approximately 1 in 68 children between the ages of 2 and 9 fall somewhere on the spectrum.
Tara Ratnam shared these thoughts about framing the role-play experience as a manifestation of reincarnation:
A response to your point [Francine raised this point in the video] about reincarnation as an explanation for people believing that they are in the wrong body:
In the karmic framework of Indian philosophy, especially within Vedantic and Yogic thought, the soul (ātman) is neither male nor female, neither human nor animal. It’s beyond all forms. So, the notion of being in the ‘wrong body’ assumes that the body is primary or definitive—something the karmic worldview regards as secondary. From this perspective, no “body” is inherently “right” or “wrong”, only more or less conducive to spiritual progress depending on karmic conditions. The body is a vehicle: impermanent, instrumental, and ultimately secondary to the essence of selfhood. What matters is not the alignment of identity with form, but the dis-identification from all limiting identifications, whether exalting or painful. So perhaps the question it leads to is not “Am I in the wrong body?” but “Who is the ‘I’ beyond all bodies?”
The psychological and emotional experience of dissonance between felt identity and embodiment is real and meaningful in modern cultural and clinical contexts. Indian philosophy, with its spacious metaphysical lens, doesn’t negate that—it simply reorients the conversation toward liberation, not affirmation.
From Francine: I am posting messages from Tara Ratnam that can give us some insights
from Indian culture. This first post discusses anthropomorphism attributing human traits to animals, plants, or inanimate objects. In the case of “furries” we have the opposite of anthropomorphism – animal traits attributed to humans. Quote “echoing a deeper mythic imagination”.
India has a rich tradition of revering anthropomorphic forms—Hanuman (monkey), Ganesha (elephant-headed), Narasimha (man-lion), and others are more than symbols—they are embodiments of cosmic truths, where the animal traits represent specific virtues: wisdom, strength, protection, or transcendence. The human-animal fusion is a way to express the interconnectedness of all life and the limitlessness of divine form.
While anthropomorphism and reincarnation are distinct concepts in Indian philosophy, they intersect in profound ways—especially in how they shape our understanding of the self, the soul, and the cosmos. Anthropomorphic deities like Narasimha (man-lion) or Varaha (boar) are intentional embodiments of cosmic principles.
In the mythic narrative of Dashavatara (the ten avatars of Lord Vishnu), four avatars take anthropomorphic forms: Matsya (The Fish) symbolising preservation of life and knowledge during the cosmic flood; Kurma (The Tortoise) stands for stability and support—he bore Mount Mandara on his back during the churning of the ocean; Varaha (The Boar) rescues Earth by lifting it from the depths of ocean (Pātāla). Narasimha (the man-lion), associated with strength and courage, destroyed the demon Hiranyakashipu to uphold dharma (righteousness). Here, anthropomorphism becomes a vehicle for reincarnation: the divine takes on forms that blend human and animal traits to fulfill cosmic duties across cycles of time.
In the doctrine of samsara (the cycle of birth and rebirth), the soul (ātman or jīva) can be reborn in any form—human, animal, divine, or even demonic—depending on karma (universal law of cause and effect). This fluidity across species boundaries implies a shared metaphysical essence among all beings. Anthropomorphism, then, reflects this metaphysical truth: that the divine spark exists in all forms, and that human and animal traits are not rigidly separate but part of a continuum. The animal-headed gods of temples echo the trans-species journey of the soul.
Here’s how I understand the shifting purpose of anthropomorphism across three domains: ancient Indian philosophy, fables such as the Panchatantra, and modern furry culture. While in Indian philosophy anthropomorphism is used to reveal the divine, fables use it to teach the human, and furry culture uses it to become the imagined self—each is a mirror. In that sense, anthropomorphic forms become tools to help us navigate meaning, morality, and identity—by reflecting, reinforcing, or reimagining our relationships: with the divine, with one another, and with ourselves.
The traditional anthropomorphic deities in India continue their living presences in ritual, art, and devotion. Could they be seen, in a playful sense, as ‘proto-furries’—despite the vastly differing contexts? From this angle, the modern furry identity might not seem alien to Indian culture, but as echoing a deeper mythic imagination where the boundaries between human and animal are fluid, sacred, and expressive. So, while furry culture in India is still emerging, it resonates with deep cultural motifs—from the Panchatantra to temple iconography. The difference seems to lie in intent and context: where ancient forms were devotional or didactic, modern furry expressions are often personal, and playful. In that sense, the line between sacred symbolism and self-expression may not be as distant as it seems—only refracted through time, context, and imagination.
.
Fascinating, Francine. I need to read that offline, but on a single reading it made perfect sense to me, thinking a the moment about the concept of hybridity applied to human affairs. An expansion of that summary would make a great article for MCA. Lets see if a discussion can be had here, focused for the moment, or taking as its starting point.
From Francine: Fantasy identities can have a beneficial effect or be detrimental.
One of the examples was the individual who crafted an identity as a “hell hound”.
This was presented as a functional adaptation, at what point would it be dysfunctional? It seems we are not to be judgemental about an individual’s choice for role-playing (a hellhound would be as neutral as any other furry dog).
Just for clarification: Autism as a diagnostic category was introduced by Leo Kanner in 1943 to describe children who lacked affective contact with other people and engaged in repetitive behaviors. This is very different from “autistic thinking” as first described by Eugene Bleuler in 1907 to describe the hallucinatory delusional thinking of schizophrenics. (When Vygotsky and Piaget mention autistic thinking they are referring to Bleuler’s concept.)
Hans Asperger studies from 1944 focused on high functioning social withdrawn individuals; that in 1977 would be designated as Asperger’s Syndrome. Eventually both the DSM 4 and the ICD 9 placed Asperger’s Syndrome within the autism spectrum.
While the American Psychological Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) is widely used for diagnosis in the USA, the rest of the world would use the World Health Organization’s International Classification of Diseases (currently ICD11).
From what I understand “Neurodiversity” is a social movement that began in the 1990’s
the term is credited to Judy Singer and Harold Blume.
I continue to enjoy these videos and am grateful that you all are making them for those of us who can attend and those of us cannot (thank you, Francine and all). I really like this book: NeuroTribes by Silberman. Like the TV show Astrid (give it some time — it builds — the gift of the thimble was a highlight for me and it comes well into the series …) that was mentioned in the video, this book helps make sense of some of the questions raised in the discussion. I am curious to hear what others think. Beth
From Tara Ratnam:
Historically, Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) was underdiagnosed in India, not necessarily because it was absent, but due to systemic limitations: a scarcity of diagnostic tools, trained professionals, and deeply rooted cultural factors such as parental denial and lack of awareness. However, recognition is growing. More children are being identified at younger ages, where previously their divergence was overlooked. The current estimate suggests that approximately 1 in 68 children between the ages of 2 and 9 fall somewhere on the spectrum.