10:35:45 thank you so let's see here I we have We're not all here.
10:35:54 I think we have to give it just a few minutes.
10:35:58 And I know to make sure that i'm recording which I am and I believe that what's going to happen is that we're going to have a discussion here led by Jim with some facilitation by me, and that you people sent
10:36:16 in questions a whole lot of them at the last minute. and I asked for last minute questions, Because it's okay.
10:36:24 Every people apologize for being busy I just couldn't imagine why you would apologize for being busy.
10:36:30 Everybody's too busy, right? I I got that so it's really nice that people could be here.
10:36:36 I see that that chat is already up and going alright.
10:36:40 So that part is working just fine. we have, Jim.
10:36:45 I sent you a few days ago the questions I had at that time. so you've had a chance to look at those, and we've had a number of interesting comments and questions come in to me this morning.
10:36:58 So I just shifted from compiling them all a single file to join in to joining the group here.
10:37:06 Let's see, we have 14 I think we might expect It's like 25, or so people coming into the conversation at 1 point or another.
10:37:17 Is there somebody? Maybe we go around I can everybody can see each other's names, But i'm sure you don't know each other.
10:37:25 So maybe just to say a couple of words about where you are, and and oriented to your participation here.
10:37:35 I'm gonna call names going left to right on my screen which starts with Elena lamprey shepherd.
10:37:40 Oh, i'm sorry I would what am I supposed to do you're supposed to introduce yourself briefly.
10:37:49 Oh, elena lampard chapel I am in New York City.
10:37:54 I'm. in charge of a large bastard degree program in child with education and special education.
10:37:59 As my Jacques Carpet used to say.
10:38:03 The gutskinism is the way of life so i'm trying to practice that Thank you i'm gonna skip over you, Jim.
10:38:11 Check payment. Yeah. truck. Benjamin just retired from Ucsp in education.
10:38:18 And without cool focus on writing it's history it's psychology.
10:38:26 It's sociology it's it's learning development over the lifespan.
10:38:33 The whole. Everything about writing great to have you here.
10:38:37 I Hello, everyone! I'm a professor of special education at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.
10:38:45 My research is focused on building school university committee partnership to address Rachel disparities in schools and and special education programs.
10:38:56 I'm interested in also future making and system transformation Hmm Kesterin Lonnet.
10:39:06 Hi Everyone I heard about this through jasmine Ma's interaction and activity lab lists and i'm i'm currently in Virginia, and where I work in field of education specifically looking at
10:39:22 children's science education in our play of emotion place and data how those all kind of come together.
10:39:31 And I Yeah, just 6. excited to be here. Thank you, Tim.
10:39:36 Hi! everybody i'm tim tim jed by a framer, and i'm a former student of Maria Maria folkman.
10:39:47 I just got my degree from the Hcc moscow and i'm. now back in Holland and we did a project on cost cultural historical approach transformation of cognitive human functioning language, representation
10:40:04 mostly. Thank you.
10:40:13 Hello, I'm: from Poland from alvnia and I'm interested in the goods kind of way of thinking. And I think that because state of the mind so i'm interested especially in social context of development yeah.
10:40:34 Not conflicts marietta you're muted you're muted unmute.
10:40:43 There you go. no problem. i'm also in the Netherlands, like Tim and I work at Utah University.
10:40:52 I think my interests are too broad to summarize but i'm mostly.
10:40:56 I mean, if you talk about the paper today, my my focus would be mostly from the perspective of polarization and conflict, and how to counter those from yeah from from our common science of learning. and education let's say Okay, Thank
10:41:16 you Teresa hi everyone i'm lisa i'm speaking from Brazil, i'm an assistant professor here at Federal University of uberlando and I work with apply linguistics so i'm
10:41:36 very interested in linkage, learning, language, learning in general, outside the classroom as well.
10:41:43 I'm very excited to be here. thank you great thank you, and Natalia got to marshall.
10:41:54 Thank you. Hi, everyone. I am coming from Kennedy, British Columbia, beautiful British Columbia, Vancouver.
10:42:01 I am a professor at Simon Fridge University Faculty of Education, who is currently on Sabbatical.
10:42:08 Thank God, after 5 years of being associated in academic, so it feels great to be here, and I will be very active, since I finally got a time to read wonderful articles.
10:42:20 Great, sure Francine
10:42:26 Hi i'm Francine smeluka I'm in Wisconsin.
10:42:32 In the Us. I have been working on vagatski's theory of imagination and creativity for the past 40 years with my husband, Larry.
10:42:42 I translated the 3 Vagotsky papers on Imagination and Creativity, way back in the 1980 S.
10:42:49 And currently I have been hosting Go on with Mike the coffee hours.
10:42:56 On imagination and creativity. The Swiss Conference in November
10:43:04 Was based on the new French transitions of those papers so we've been going forward to a seminar on cultural praxis, so that's sort of an advertisement for our continuing discussion groups on
10:43:20 imagination and creativity. Great thank you i'm sorry now I'm.
10:43:28 The young man in the center of my screen and red plaid shirt, because the nice scrolling that was put in blocks your name, and I can't see it so i've Crystal Strode just recently
10:43:39 finished by PHD. learning sciences about a year and a half ago at University of Calgary, Canada, and I'm.
10:43:46 Now a new lecturer at the University of Leads in the Uk.
10:43:49 As a month ago. Congratulations to great. Thank you.
10:43:53 Okay, Peter. you walked in. we're just introducing ourselves and We're just on time to sort of start the the procession.
10:44:00 Say a word or 2 about yourself, hey? everybody, at ai Jim, it's so good to see you after all this time. My name is Peter Smagger, and go into other people too.
10:44:10 But I I I we're fine Peter Okay, So my name's Peter Snaggerinsky. I'm recently retired, or well, 2,020 morning from the University of Georgia and I I've been trying to
10:44:23 figure this stuff out for a long time, and plenty of people on this call have been very helpful to me, and and doing sales.
10:44:32 So i'm i'm still trying to figure it out and that's one reason i'm here.
10:44:38 Okay, Well, all right. So why don't We just if if by my my clock on my screen?
10:44:44 It's just about the advertised time of starting and So I just very briefly, I wanna say a few words about the the the common context that we're doing this in and to thank everybody for being here I I mentioned before, several people
10:45:01 said, Oh, i'm sorry to be late, because and you know it's just we're we're not living.
10:45:09 We're all living beside ourselves in some way right it's a it's it's that kind of time.
10:45:14 So I think we have to be very forgiving of each other's slight imperfections, and getting things done on time speaking for myself at least and i'm just grateful when people can put in the time, so
10:45:27 with that. it's just great for all of us to have Jim here to talk with this, and I don't need to tell you whether you're a beginner or an old timer.
10:45:40 The Jim has been absolutely central to the exploration and dissemination of cultural, historically.
10:45:48 Psychology ideas. Yes, of course, the work of the Ganski, but he was also instrumental in publications by luria and explorations of many of the associated lines of work that We've come to
10:46:03 associate with cultural historic association, cultural historical types of psychological research.
10:46:12 And the talk today is kindled Habits of collected memory from the the feedback that I got.
10:46:22 I should let everybody know here that there are people here who have not read.
10:46:26 They've read the article, but not the literature so the article was not that easy for them to heard a grasp in its hole in its parts?
10:46:34 It could be followed in part, but not entirely others who do quite well what they wanted to ask, and as fairly complicated questions.
10:46:44 And I forwarded the questions that I had received as of a few days ago. To Jim.
10:46:51 Those from this morning you're gonna have to rely on me to kind of introduce, or just invite people to talk about them.
10:46:59 And if I feel that something has been left out from what the questions that have come in, maybe people who with last minute couldn't make it, and there have been some cases like that person who's ill i'll try to represent the other
10:47:13 voices in here to make sure that this is the kind of multi voice discussion that the circumstances were in require, and I don't think I need to elaborate on those that we could do for a later time my expectation beth will correct me
10:47:33 if i'm wrong is that the materials from this coffee hour will be posted on the cultural practice, and that if you join cultural practice, which I recommend that you do, it would be possible for you then to comment on the
10:47:53 paper and on just to continue focused on jim's paper and one of the concerns with discussion groups that are very broad.
10:48:05 We can see this, even in our discussion on imagination and creativity, decide.
10:48:10 But is connected to every other bone in the body one way or another.
10:48:16 And so conversations tend to get quite broad. The effort here is to try to keep things focused, and if they go broad to create something other than a coffee hour, a discussion around this with this supplementary discussion.
10:48:33 But rather to do what Francine and others are doing with the imagination and creativity.
10:48:38 Coffee hour which has yet to be posted on cultural practice, but presumably will be
10:48:45 And then dave created a seminar and the seminar will use cultural practice, and it's it's aegis.
10:48:54 I don't know it's it's in premature it's facilities to carry on the discussion.
10:48:59 So we're, this is all a part of trying to build up discourse.
10:49:05 That will be useful for people. One of the comments i'm going to end with this and turn it to Jim.
10:49:11 One of the comments reminded me of something that I probably reminded Natalia because she was the one that reminded me of this for this occasion, and that is the remark by Milan Cinderella near the beginning of
10:49:25 his incredible book book of Laughter, and forgetting that the struggle of men against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting.
10:49:35 So I think that's not a bad with the struggles over memory that we're going on in the world today.
10:49:42 I think that's probably a pretty good introduction we Now, have about 10 people who have come in in the last 5 min or so.
10:49:50 Hi, everybody out there we're kind of getting started now and Jim works is going to speak to us, and we'll continue the discussion for there.
10:50:00 If you wanna be called on. please just use the facilities to raise your hand, and i'll do the best I can to be inclusive of everybody.
10:50:11 Oh, the dory behind me is close that's good so Jim, you're on Yeah.
10:50:17 Hello! some very familiar people for some long years actually now and some new faces here as well.
10:50:24 So i'm really delighted to see all of you and meet some of you, and reconnect with others.
10:50:28 And I I I'm thinking i'm just gonna say maybe 10 or 15 min, and then we'll open up the questions because that run through the questions that Mike passed on to me and i've drawn some general response that
10:50:41 I want to start with. but then let's see what you really have on your mind, said, maybe, or maybe more good covered by this in general.
10:50:50 Everything I do here. but also in my 1991 book.
10:50:57 How nations remember, I consider to be very much of the gold skin enterprise.
10:51:02 It doesn't show up that way it's not about doesn't say if you go ski does say now a narrative approach in addition to how nations remembered but for me the key is and it couldn't
10:51:12 get. I couldn't get here without this key the key still is semiotic mediation, and the semiatic the sign forms i'm really interested in.
10:51:20 Now our narratives when this of course comes with a lot of the cultural baggage, and a lot of the political concern and anxiety right now.
10:51:32 So i'm trying to good to work on some of the things that really concern a lot of us, and more generally as citizens.
10:51:39 So There's cultural tools is central to what I argue here, and it makes it difficult for people from other disciplines and other backgrounds.
10:51:47 I'm not talking about you folks, but others wait a minute.
10:51:52 Are you saying that narratives make us do things? No.
10:51:53 Are you saying that, do we on the other hand so you're saying we're free agents, not entirely because we're organized around our use of cultural tools.
10:52:02 What goes further here is these cultural tools are not just individual inventions or private property.
10:52:10 They're shared. I mean this is crucial for understanding how collected memory works.
10:52:15 Basically, a lot of people share a limited set of narratives.
10:52:19 And one of the biggest issues is, how do they get into that position?
10:52:23 Education whatever a lot. There are the big questions there. But how do you share these narratives?
10:52:28 And furthermore, how do we share them in a way that doesn't seem to make sense?
10:52:34 If you're saying Well, can I test you and do you know this narrative, do you know that narrative?
10:52:38 No what we need to move down to and this is not so much covered.
10:52:43 It's compatible with the guardsky activity theory etc.
10:52:46 But you need to move down to what I learned from another Soviet colleague.
10:52:49 Get yourself about underlying codes what he'd like to call under one code
10:53:02 So the point here is what we share. Yes, we do share specific narratives, and by a specific narrative I mean, there are tapes that have concrete information, but actors dates, times places, but more importantly, and more
10:53:16 hidden. and hence, for that reason, more powerful and more resistant to change are these underlying narrative forms which I call narrative templates.
10:53:28 So let me give you an example of how I got this point.
10:53:31 Came from my experience living in working in the Soviet Union before and after it was in existence, and I did it early.
10:53:41 A lot of earlier work looking at them, but just hanging out for the most part this crucial thing here with Russians, who, it would know everything, for example, about world war, 2, and no much more than I did including many times they knew
10:53:55 more than I did about American participation. World War 2. not a matter of information.
10:54:02 There was any at real issue here, and so they always talked about this, and they knew what happened to World war.
10:54:08 2, and I've read history and media and things in in Soviet Union, and then then came along break down the Soviet Union, break up the Soviet Union early nineties, and my colleagues just went crazy.
10:54:18 And now they could collect all kinds of things they never could collect before, and they just were like squirrels stirring up nuts for winter.
10:54:26 They've made huge you know stacks of books in the corner, or they just could not buy enough things because they never could read that before.
10:54:32 And everybody was saying, You know, Now I can say things. we can write things that we could never say.
10:54:37 5 years ago, 10 years ago, I I would have been out of a job, if not works 10 years ago.
10:54:42 How do I been caught with that item right over there in a corner?
10:54:46 Or if I had written something like that, So this is a really striking thing, it's huge emancipation of change, you might say, in the national narrative.
10:54:56 But as I look through these things more and more, and I work through this in a 2,002 book, how voices of collective remembering voices is an index team, by the way, Another Major Hebrew of mine.
10:55:08 But as it works through there, one of the things that finally dawned on me is, I read textbooks, for example, and ask students write essays about World war.
10:55:18 2 great patriotic work. again and again.
10:55:22 It was, it was completely different. things were written, and said that really would have got you in trouble things like you know Comments party not only not help one roll or 2.
10:55:32 It's an impediment to It I mean that those are really very serious charges in the midst of the cold work.
10:55:39 But then it gradually dawned on me. You know this is really not all different in terms of this plot line.
10:55:45 Basically, there's a basic plot line here when I call explosive 18 enemies, and the idea is is Russia is sitting, not bothering anybody is suddenly attacked by outside forces.
10:55:58 Threats could be Germany increasing the American nato but it's attacked by an outside force.
10:56:06 It almost is destroyed by this outside force trying to destroy brush and civilization.
10:56:11 But through heroism, exceptionalism, bravery they expelled, they destroyed and expelled it.
10:56:20 Alien enemy. Now, the thing that is this is a narrative template that's a simple, very simple narrative form.
10:56:27 There, and it was the same narrative template, almost sometimes verbatim.
10:56:33 If in the Soviet Union and Post-soviet Russia, the only thing that had changed which is a big thing, that no longer was the hero of the Soviet Union members of the Communist party of the Communist party for sure is Now the great Russian
10:56:45 people so. and as a matter of fact, then you started hearing his critiques about.
10:56:50 Well, you know, college party didn't even help that much it almost wrecked our efforts.
10:56:55 Yeah, So an area temple like this is something that's shared broadly.
10:56:59 It's shared at an unconscious level but most people you know.
10:57:03 Nobody ever sat me down. Say, let me tell you about this narrative.
10:57:05 Schema, or Nips narrative template show is, but you infer it by looking at many many texts.
10:57:13 It's based on a lot of terrible historical experience. of course.
10:57:15 I mean if I ask Russians, tell me the times You've been invaded, that any Russian just real off 10 items to say the Mongols, the Swedes, the Germans the French you know the
10:57:29 the Germans again. and so it goes on and on like that.
10:57:34 And so in these reflect actual historical episodes and actual devastation to greater or less a degree of Russia attacks some Russian civilization, no doubt, so I don't dispute that for a second, they have a right to
10:57:47 thinking in those terms, you might say, But what this says is move into now is a narrative template, or you could call schematic narrative template.
10:57:58 That helps place it on your conceptual framework and furthermore I'm moved on now to want to talk about habits, because these become narrative habits.
10:58:07 They're not something we recognize I mean you don't recognize your habits of.
10:58:14 You know what. but what you put over the bed in the morning first, or something like that?
10:58:18 No, no! these are just habits that are unconscious.
10:58:20 The partly because they're habits they're also very resistant to change, because we don't even know we have some in the narrative habits associated with this narrative template the expulsion of
10:58:30 alien enemies is something that immediately pops to mind.
10:58:33 When people see things you look at what's happening today, i've been writing op-eds about this and other things as well putin.
10:58:41 But it's not just putin now We're talking about a sizable percentage of the Russian population.
10:58:46 They immediately see enemies. We don't and sometimes you know we call them paranoid or something, and there really are enemies.
10:58:56 Paranoids do have enemies i'm not disputing that.
10:58:59 But when you get into these confrontation sees what they call it demonic, you know.
10:59:06 Standoffs sometimes that you could just can't you look across the table.
10:59:09 You hear somebody say something about the past you see I can't believe you really think that the problem is you're looking at me, and they're saying I can't believe you really think them and you don't know where to go from
10:59:20 there. And the reason is it's not on the surface bringing up facts are not likely to dissuade somebody else or me of what the real, what real story is here the underlying narrative of what you're asked you're
10:59:33 here. And so we have a real problem of conflict in resolution which is very difficult.
10:59:41 Now one of the things that's crucial I mean for one of the best, maybe the best still overall description of the habit with creating site came over 130 years ago.
10:59:53 William James, this chapter, Hamlet in Principles of Psychology, and he talks there about things like
11:00:01 Think of a habit, or you got this from somewhere else.
11:00:05 But, you know, think of a habit like taking a piece of paper and putting your crease in it.
11:00:12 These are some of your and your questions so i'll open it up again here, but so and then open it up.
11:00:16 Now build it again. Nope, you can go right back to the same piece.
11:00:20 If I say, could you move that crease over a half inch?
11:00:22 Now you have to slow way down it's very effortful to try to change the crease.
11:00:28 There. This is really in contemporary literature and psychology, anyways related to things like fast thinking of Daniel Kahneman.
11:00:34 But the general move and cognitive studies to the unconscious implicit attitudes, implicit memory, all all kinds of things.
11:00:46 So i'm really trying to explore these deep areas because that's where so much of memory in groups is retained and we don't even know where you are and plotting a new story on the same plot structure we've already
11:00:59 memorized many times over. and furthermore James in his chapter it's just a master that's a massively work.
11:01:07 And of course it reads extremely well too. James at 1 point, calls habits.
11:01:14 The great fly wheel of society. this whole groups he was talking about how people get used to their places in society.
11:01:23 What keeps a farmer, you know, in New England farming, which is not a good depth even in his day at all.
11:01:29 But why did they stay there? he's kind of asking that question Why do people stay in their places in a class hierarchical setting?
11:01:36 Why don't they revolt all the time and that's? because in his just description, habits are the great fly wheel of society, and that means whole groups share the same habits, and he did not have a slight How you
11:01:49 serve a tennis ball. Oh, that's a habit. to be sure, but shared ones are most effectively efficiently done with the help of narratives, and even people like you know.
11:02:01 Harari and his Sapiens book.
11:02:04 It talks about. Oh, what was it about language that allowed us as unacceptable apes to jump out over the other species, and do all our damage and all the good that we've done?
11:02:16 If he said, Is he collecting you up he didn't call collective?
11:02:18 But he says his imagination the power to imagine things, and then to imagine things individually means.
11:02:24 You also want to figure out how to the whole group manage things together, and I think the key there going back to my starting point is narratives as well tools. So let's see, i'm trying to make a package here that I
11:02:36 apply to just horrendous events going on in the United States as well.
11:02:41 You know we haven't haven't been here very deeply embedded.
11:02:45 We've worked some with that. but lost calls narrative for example, but I'm mostly always been fascinated because it's it outside of Russian society.
11:02:54 I see things in some ways that people agree with, but they really shock us, and sometimes by looking at others and being shot, we can help ourselves being a little bit shocked as well about where we might be stuck in these rules or ruts or whatever you
11:03:07 think they are of habits so that's what i'm trying to be up to.
11:03:11 I do see it as still. I I can't do this without notions of narrative, with agricultural tools, without forms of dialogue.
11:03:20 I mean that people that are drawn on so much in the ghosts and buck team, and a lot of other notions, including, for example, I don't know if you remember this, Mike.
11:03:31 But Kenneth Burke came back with vengeance for me.
11:03:35 It's just wonderful little people that mike introduced me to hey?
11:03:38 You gotta read this because you're gonna be in calm 100 you're gonna have to cover this.
11:03:42 So I did put it away, and I came back decades later.
11:03:46 Kenneth Burke had this little article called Narratives as equipment.
11:03:50 No, literature is equipment for living and basically i've just pasted a new word there.
11:03:55 Narratives is equipment for living and what he says literature does, and what i'm saying narrative to, he said, Okay, we can talk about a narrative.
11:04:03 This 10% and 10,000 or 1,000 pages long.
11:04:08 But they also can be this very, very condensed form of narrative templates, and that's not just adding up the narratives, just showing what's the underlying structure that a lot of them reflect and he says with
11:04:20 that that does, is it allows us to size up a situation a story? If we're Russia looks at what's going on right now with Nato, it allows not only putin but a lot of people that size up the situation.
11:04:34 Immediate I mean they just see it as if they don't realize they're looking through semiotic mediation to get there.
11:04:40 Same here. it's easy to point out in others but It's also cause for reflection on our own.
11:04:44 But Kenneth Burke, talking about, you know.
11:04:47 Think about what it means to call a well, somebody name of a title of a novel.
11:04:53 Immediately, you you might. The novel might be 300 pages long, but you size up somebody once you get that that label put on him.
11:05:04 So if we can do these things all the time, and I think we have some new tools around to deal with these, and a lot of you have been adding a lot to this in terms of context and other things.
11:05:12 So let me stop there and let you see a fail that's I don't really confusing you are helpful or not, or what you want to ask, and push me further all right just give me 1 s cause Jim there's
11:05:27 a little bit on the chat, if you wanna just poke in there and and see what people have had to contribute there.
11:05:38 I so i'm just trying to figure out what's the best way to go here is there
11:05:48 There are several different kinds of variations of a question that are really questioning.
11:05:55 The relations get a better idea of the relationship between terms like a schema script format narrative.
11:06:08 So Yeah. and I I know you have one question along those lines about that about sort of on intelligent epistemology.
11:06:16 If I i'm just remembering back to it but several people have asked for greater clarity there, and I myself am not entirely clear.
11:06:26 For example. why a term? what the difference What the implications are of a choice between one or another of these terms.
11:06:34 That's one way to put it So several people have questions along that line.
11:06:42 Okay, Well, I grew up in graduate school first with Ph. J.
11:06:48 So I learned a lot. I read all kinds of things about schemata and everything, and and actually I use that a little bit.
11:06:54 But I think the reason I wanna talk about narrative templates, and it could be called narrative schema.
11:07:03 As far as i'm concerned, it's drawing on different literature.
11:07:05 For me. It kind of partly from Bartlett, who actually introduced these famous for introducing their schema into memory studies.
11:07:11 But he practically said nothing about it. actually and at his desk people said, you know.
11:07:17 No, he's not gonna be remembered for that at all, and be remember for other things here's Bartlett, almost a 100 years later still being remembered for schema in memory steps and for ph J.
11:07:27 Genetic epistemology there you have another notion of scheme, and that schema and for Pij, though it's a very general term coming from biology.
11:07:35 So there's a grasping schema there's a sucking scheme, and everything builds up out of that.
11:07:41 But for me this thing is closer to Bart. left in this respect distinguishes the notionary template from
11:07:49 Schema is his notion is I think it's much broader.
11:07:54 It's a user. It means a pattern of action that could be grasping.
11:07:56 It could be putting things together much more complicated levels I wanna bring in the notion narrative, because there's a whole long tradition starting with Aristotle on narratives and narrative as a cultural tool has its
11:08:08 own organizing principles. and you've got to have a plot. Basically, that's the most important crucial thing, a beginning, middle, and end. and it has a strange logic, because you often don't know the meaning of anything in the story until
11:08:22 you know the ending Now that's strange in a lot of ways how what it's only by going back as you do in a detective show.
11:08:30 You don't know who really you know did this and how it all fits together.
11:08:34 So you get at the end and portuguese because everybody in the living room is says, now here's how this happened that they've shown you hints along the way. but you don't know what it means until you get to the
11:08:42 end. And this is a crucial part. What a narrative This is plot structure, and it's sometimes called a strange logic, and that is distinct from kind of abstract analytic thinking.
11:08:53 Jerry Bruner, of course. worked on this for a lot of years as well, but it brings us strange logic, and that's kind of packaged cultural tool.
11:09:04 There comes in prepackaged form at this abstract narrative template level.
11:09:12 And so basically it's used repeatedly that's why Russians can list up all these events they're all implotted the same way, and and everything and the same We know how that ends up in their account I
11:09:24 hope we don't have to find out again, but but anyway.
11:09:27 So That's one kind of plot this let me stop, Elena.
11:09:35 You need to mute yourself
11:09:42 Jim go ahead Okay. So anyway, plot narrative templates, and they they could be called narrative schemata
11:09:52 But i'm trying not to drag in all the other literature to have a focus discussion on the things that really help me make sense of what's going on in you know national memory and Russia in the United States.
11:10:03 So it's variety of reasons it from a variety of sources.
11:10:06 I don't think there's inherent clash between narrative template and a narrative schema frame.
11:10:13 Somebody else raised a frame, I think at least I understand it and it's because all these terms get used all different ways.
11:10:21 Of course. but you know, frame is not necessarily a plot it's a procedure.
11:10:26 You go through It's procedure, I really want to stay in this seminar, but I can't, I guess.
11:10:39 Okay, Lena, I guess She's talking to us it's not clear.
11:10:46 Okay, go ahead, Jim. So anyway, yeah, there there are a lot of different ideas.
11:10:51 But I would challenge anybody and that's Why, you don't see me really try to define template.
11:10:57 You find me trying to use examples to lead us to what it means.
11:11:00 But same as schema. a scheme is extremely powerful.
11:11:04 The analytic tool and psychology. Okay, But as somebody define a schema, and we can find you know if we got 25 people here. Yeah, 25 people here, we can find 25 people saying, Yeah, But does that count and you
11:11:15 can't answer that question. I think so it's a schematic knowledge of what schemas are.
11:11:20 I think, among other things.
11:11:27 Maybe let's see I don't I don't have I have the my, the questions that I have Jim.
11:11:35 Why is there take one from you and then there's one that i'd like to raise and then we can go around. keep going on around.
11:11:42 But what on the your printed sheet there strikes you as something you'd like to address in addition there.
11:11:47 I was just looking at chat here as well Peter Smigrinsky.
11:11:52 I really agree. Tim Snyder is a major major figure for understanding Russian national narratives.
11:11:58 Because he takes it into areas to say as with all national narratives in all national memory. it relies into one degree and one form or another on myth.
11:12:08 That's part of what national memory national narratives are
11:12:15 So I I see, for example, I don't know who wrote this but it there's a question here on the printout.
11:12:26 I got your questions the narrative schema invoked?
11:12:31 Is a approximate work, ethic you must earn status from righteous behavior, and what you're getting at here.
11:12:38 Whoever this was. Yes, you can understand the Protestant, the props that spirit of capitalism, the what is it favors great work the pros and ethnic and a spirit of capitalism?
11:12:53 Basically, what you find there there's a a life narrative that he said, Protestants have, and this is a different kind of narrative, though when we get to an autobiographic narrative, But this is also
11:13:06 a a different sort. Now see 2 different sorts, the 2 categories of national memory and national narratives.
11:13:12 One is this narrative template? These are events that happen.
11:13:14 They finish. You only know what they mean after they're over etcetera.
11:13:19 But just re it can't be in template unless this report repeated more than once.
11:13:22 But there's another of us the moral philosopher. Alice or Macintyre calls an aspirational narrative. This is like an autobiographical narrative.
11:13:31 This is so you might any of us might ask what's the story of my life.
11:13:36 What you're asking what do you aspire to and How do you implot that the difference is unless you're more spiritually higher level than I you don't know the ending we don't know the ending of
11:13:48 our own life, we aspire to something but that nonetheless it's so.
11:13:54 It's a one-time narrative line it's like an autobiographical text.
11:13:59 And nobody can write the final chapter or their autobiography is something that's part of people from the niche on but
11:14:07 So the point here is there's another kind I think the product is an ethic.
11:14:12 As a narrative is it aspirational narrative it's not that you see a whole bunch of Protestant ethics being worked out different places in the world in general.
11:14:20 What you're talking about. There is a narrative you inspired, and that applies to nations as well.
11:14:26 So America has an aspirational narrative. or at least the thought we did, but it's all about the city on the hill, and more perfect union quest for freedom and an opportunity.
11:14:36 Russia has an aspirational narrative and That's where Timothy Snyder comes in as an aspirational narrative of leading the world to pure Christianity as a mission and that's something very
11:14:48 strong going centuries back and philosophy. but you know you could find it in dusty asking.
11:14:52 Other people, too. So these are different kinds of narratives, but they do their work without our even realizing that.
11:15:00 Basically, I can only speak if I speak within the plot and certain instances.
11:15:07 Okay, I'm gonna let me post a question here that came in this morning.
11:15:13 This is from may see it in in in wisconsin in May see I can't see whether you're not.
11:15:18 You're on the screen, but i'm gonna ask a question for you here.
11:15:22 Question is this: when is memory not collective I understand that the unit used here is an individual as a member of a group, and I can't help but think that we are all told and crafted with particular stories, and
11:15:39 habits of preceding them. Often so much is lost in trying to understand our own stories.
11:15:45 La, whose stories, but I am also told land remembers water remembers where they are supposed to, where it's supposed to flow.
11:15:57 Train tracks cut through waterways continue to flood because water remembers and wants to return and connect back to the river.
11:16:03 How does place in land and waters support collective remembering as a verb?
11:16:10 I personally can't think of an instance where memory is an individual one.
11:16:15 And so this is my first curiosity
11:16:22 That's for you Jim. Yeah, that's a double barrels question really good one.
11:16:28 I think but it goes all the way back. The the usually the figure credited with being the originator of modern collective memory studies this Maurice Hallbox.
11:16:38 He is a sociologist who live in the early twentieth century is couple books that are in English and others.
11:16:44 But He was a student of of both
11:16:50 Well, both sociology and psychology of the time. and
11:16:57 He has a couple of books just called the collective from memory and other things, but he he also says this is a sense.
11:17:03 Yes, there's no such thing as an individual memory basically and that's because he didn't usually terms because you've developed memories in collaboration with others, and just discourse with them.
11:17:14 But you also harness to collect the the cultural tools that are given to you by a society so that's a I mean, I think some we're pretty familiar with in this group.
11:17:24 You look for mediation means or coastal tools so you it's not, you remember, and practically ever it's you remembering with the help of a cultural tool. So that's kind of the basic unit of analysis another question
11:17:34 I saw up there. But then, okay, so. but already by saying it that way by by saying for the kind of collective memory I'm trying to talk about.
11:17:46 Certainly it can take into account and they're huge things that are T.
11:17:50 And involved about the natural landscape. but i'm looking for cases where you have an active cognitive agent using a cultural tool.
11:17:59 And so in that sense that would distinguish it from the way we talk about how water remembers her, you know, if they always have these mattresses that remember your body shape whatever they want to talk about muscle muscle
11:18:12 memory and things, so that's somewhere in between maybe but I think in essence, it's different.
11:18:18 And it does again point to this issue just as my book voices the collective remembering.
11:18:25 I never define collected memory, or do you like you remembering I listed properties. it had.
11:18:30 I try to show what good it does and the same applies I think, for issues like collective memory today or schema. They're cultural. their theoretical tools in their own right, and they they bear up or don't bear
11:18:42 up under pragmatic kind of truth. condition that since Henry
11:18:49 William James, and just followers. You know me.
11:18:55 Did this a little bit, but other others in the primitive tradition.
11:19:00 So in that sense it kind of really. I want to talk about narrative templates.
11:19:04 The real question, What good does that make do me does that Allow me to tell you me something, and you something you wouldn't otherwise recognize.
11:19:12 And here I I think i'm pretty convinced it works when I talk to Russian colleagues about does this make sense?
11:19:17 If I say this is the basic plotline russia's sitting there suddenly, wantingly attacked almost destroyed as a civilization, and rises up and expeles the enemy, and it's not only Russia that has this but
11:19:28 they have a very strong form of say, Yeah, that sounds just about right.
11:19:31 But what I try to talk about and that's what I do sometimes in op-ed, since short form if you put it, Everybody's asking, you know, a year ago, just everybody is asking at the all the top pundits correctly everybody
11:19:45 what is putting out what's He want how do you make sense of what he's doing.
11:19:49 You know. is he really he couldn't possibly mean that well, we found I did possibly mean some of those things, and I think the key. the best single key to this is he's living in a national narrative.
11:20:02 The world of his own national narrative. which he shares with a lot of other people that's why he can appeal to mobilize people there in Russia.
11:20:07 Not everybody, but many. So the nationality this mystic national memory and national narrative, importantly as a cultural tool is guiding him into places where we are totally toned up.
11:20:19 We don't even hear and we can't believe this at first, but he keeps.
11:20:23 He kept doing things, that people just couldn't understand and they said openly said, I don't understand ukraine's in some way, but a lot of people just couldn't understand in the West for sure what's he
11:20:33 up to. I think this this is the best tool we have going this narrative template business.
11:20:39 And so in that sense, if it does this in good and trying to give you a better answer and better a little bit better prediction of what he's doing, that's true. But only pragmatically true.
11:20:50 Okay, I'm, gonna i'm gonna follow that up just with an observation from Macy as well because I think it's another issue that we need to need to as part of the context that I was trying to think about at the
11:21:03 very beginning where she writes: I appreciate the inclusion of habits and narrative templates, and pushing our understanding of collective memory.
11:21:10 Habits are learned and also could change I guess my design brain is on, and I'm wondering if we're really trying to design for otherwise black life, indigenous futures dominant national narratives and templates have
11:21:25 to change. We don't just need other stories we probably need other stories templates.
11:21:32 How might we attun to the tools that curate dominant narratives, and also open ourselves up to shift our existing habits and templates?
11:21:42 What might we need to be willing to relearn, or even collectively forget.
11:21:48 And this, that that question connects up with a number of people who are asking about the role of forgetting in this story about collective remembering.
11:21:58 I But I think the main thing here is this: I think you know this issue of Well, what do you have to change?
11:22:05 Is it just different stories are, or how is it that such national template fly?
11:22:12 You laid out the template of American exceptionalism. You know very nicely.
11:22:16 How is it that gets turned around? No, that's a a full throat?
11:22:25 Question touches on practicing all these things what i'm really after in the long run, and and it's it's all too easy and convincing to end up with some very pessimistic
11:22:36 conclusions mainly. These are habits, I think, and we say habits can change.
11:22:41 But habits are really our mental habits are very hard to change.
11:22:45 I think. Oh, James talked about you better get your work in early with children and learning habits, because then it's gonna be hard and hard and change.
11:22:55 And I think that's one thing that is the case we're still confronted with Okay, so people are gonna blow each other up over this.
11:23:00 How can we find companies ground or change habits or whatever? and of course it's related to power at that point in the long ways. There are some very effective means for encourage you not to change your mental habits if you get
11:23:13 out of line and any society. so that's one thing but to extend that there so so recalcitrant, and we're so resistant to change.
11:23:25 I just point out one of the things I talk about in a number of nations.
11:23:29 Remember I I met some diplomats, a Chinese diplomat who was kind of had for decades trained a lot of Chinese diplomatic core.
11:23:37 Bonji. She is his name in in Beijing, and ken Lieberthall, who is one of our Premier china experts back in the Clinton administration.
11:23:47 He's brigging an institution now, and they created They got together, they knew each other for years, and they got together. you know.
11:23:53 We need to talk to each other about strategic distrust they said, because that's we just you know.
11:24:02 And so they got together, and the the deal was each would write their story of the other, and then they would come together.
11:24:10 So what's America up to wang chi rice said Ken.
11:24:12 Labor, said, Oh, what's China up to and these are very experienced diplomats?
11:24:17 They know more. Both of them know way more about America than I do.
11:24:21 For example, Bonjii, total expert, etc., and they come together.
11:24:27 And this is sobering. They come together, and with people of goodwill they can negotiate.
11:24:33 All, all kinds of things, but they kind of ended up saying, you know, I just can't believe you still believe that bang, she said.
11:24:41 Well, I know your stories about the exceptionalism of city on the hill, but in China everybody says nobody you know you Americans don't really believe that that's just the cover for being able to carry on your dog eat dog in the wild attack
11:24:55 So here we have you have collected memory habits or memory habits in America, but you also have Chinese memory habits, and they're based on this very strongly based on the century humiliation narrative
11:25:07 template in China I would talk about since the nineteenth century with opium wars and things.
11:25:12 But he, you have very experienced, patient, intelligent people, talking to each other and long juice.
11:25:18 She says that you know your story and i'm trying to get into it.
11:25:22 But then the end I said you know you don't really believe that, and that's what we said we a lot of people say that about to.
11:25:29 He's just putting this on, he doesn't really believe that it's just after more riches, or something that makes sense to us so in interpreting events, but especially in interpreting others interpretations our mental habits it's not
11:25:44 intractable and I think they do change on occasion but it's a 1 million dollar question getting youth together.
11:25:52 You know They're all kinds of these experiments with the Israeli and Palestinian used to go off to a camp.
11:25:57 Spend 2 weeks gives me really good friends. They, you know, swim together and tell you volleyball.
11:26:02 They discuss together they come back and they go back into their kind of memory.
11:26:07 Yeah, half it's the old i've seen it how's it by Johnny and people for Armenia.
11:26:15 So. but I don't want to just end on this downbeat message, and we can't.
11:26:22 So. so I think you know one of the best things that I could say.
11:26:25 If you, as far as I can see how you gonna change some of these, one of the best ways to do this is hit.
11:26:32 Somebody in the face with something that they just cannot believe and one of the best ways to do that as a young person going to another society and lived there for a while, and they'll do things you just can't believe But then, after a
11:26:42 while. you Do you realize they do believe this and I think what we're after the long run?
11:26:48 Is not to transcend our mental habits I don't think we can do that.
11:26:53 Basically our national narratives. but we can gain a great deal more humility about the limits of our own.
11:26:59 So I might never become a good Russian, but I have much less face than what I used to know is true absolutely true.
11:27:07 After i've encountered wonderful friends. smart people for decades same with Chinese and it's you could say Well, it's probably putting yourself in the other shoes.
11:27:18 But you also have to recognize the narrative habits that kept you in your shoes and make it very resistant to stepping out of that.
11:27:24 So I think this kind of confrontation is one of the best things.
11:27:28 Starting early and teaching habits big deal, and maybe some other things.
11:27:31 But this is the biggest question underlying everything we're after here that i'm after, anyway.
11:27:38 Okay, I but I kind of like to do now, is to ask people in the audience who feel that questions that they've raised have not been represented in what's been said here, and all the way back to we have a couple of sort
11:27:54 of beginners who don't know the literature Well, and we're. We're not sim weren't sure of the arguments that just the basic arc of your of your paper so i'm not sure i'd
11:28:10 really like people to step in here to say if you're a beginner.
11:28:16 Say, would you, Jim? would you please and otherwise people you got to feel for what we've have on the table?
11:28:23 Now who would like to step in and offer up? Francine, I see Francine with her hand up, so speak, speak, speak!
11:28:33 Fancy I think we're all beginners by the way so that you bet.
11:28:37 Okay, what Jim has been talking about sits in very well with the October that we're gonna have on cultural praxis.
11:28:52 Shannon Brinket in Australia. has been has a wonderful paper just published on imagination and international relations.
11:29:07 Shit that's shannon's specialty area Now, my son, just finished the masters in international relations in Scotland, and so I i'm kind of aware of the framing theory of social movement theory
11:29:27 in international relations, and a lot of what Jim has been talking about.
11:29:37 He has been addressed in a different frame. using framing theory rather than narrative.
11:29:45 A narrative building is part of framing theory W.
11:29:49 Which one subsumes, the other a whole different question but shannon's point, and he will be addressing this in actual where we just don't have the date scheduled. But his point is that an international relations theory they
11:30:03 really have not addressed the role of imagination. It has been relegated to Hobbes view of imagination as suspicion of others, and that's why the Leviathan State has to emerge because
11:30:21 imagination works in a negative way, and his papers exploring how imagination could would be used in a positive way if ties in really nicely here.
11:30:34 So I just I just wanna mention that, and then invite people to, you know.
11:30:39 Look at the cultural praxis website because we will be posting that session for October.
11:30:45 Great. Thank you. from the chat Maria, folkman you have.
11:30:53 You have an observation that sort of translates jim's terms into activity, theory, terms.
11:30:59 If I understand your question, why don't you not everybody's looked at the chat.
11:31:03 Why, don't you repeat it and just it's it's an interesting question.
11:31:06 Well, basically, there is one more question which is still, unclear to me and dancer, and it's about the exact relationships between the schema narrative and habit.
11:31:28 And well. my observation is that when they introduce a concept of a cultural tool, the use of any tool and learned use of any tool as an operation in terms of the activity theory, just a way of performing a certain goal
11:31:43 directed action and learned to use as an operation is automatic and uncontrolled, and that corresponds to habits.
11:31:56 But I would like to learn more about jim's version of the entire interpretation of the relationships between these 3 concepts.
11:32:08 Very good and reasonable question, and yes, I think there are parallels there.
11:32:13 The one thing I would point out, and it doesn't necessarily answer your question. but the one thing I would point out that a lot of times when we come from psychology there's a very strong tendency to talk about you know the individuals if we're all
11:32:27 the same. And so you talk about fast thinking schemata whatever frames whatever you're looking at, what are these things that humans use?
11:32:37 And so, if you talk about fast thinking, for example, the whole big book is a really fabulous book, is, you know, has plus and minuses.
11:32:44 But Daniel Klman sat thinking fast and slow.
11:32:47 For example, change the way of public discourse about pushed a lot of psychological theorizing into the unconscious, basically not the Freudian unconscious to have it or the operational level.
11:32:58 So yeah, that is that's really important but the thing that common does not do. And for him it might just be trivial.
11:33:05 That's why, he doesn't do it he doesn't tell you.
11:33:09 Okay, okay. This I might say, Oh, as a reader, I understand fast thinking now.
11:33:12 Got it. you know it's just somebody sitting on an elephant.
11:33:16 The elephant really does all work, for us and we think we're guiding things. But we're only guiding a little bit whatever from Johnson Heights. you know.
11:33:23 You get these things. But what i'm really interested is How does the fast thinking of one society differ from the fast thinking from another?
11:33:31 And that could be just just applied problem for somebody like Kahneman.
11:33:36 Maybe in a lot of ways I i'm coming from the other direction that my oh, see stage of life!
11:33:44 I I want to try to find something that makes a difference, for things that are could give us all blowing up, even if I it.
11:33:50 You know I have to borrow and catch his catch can in a lot of ways.
11:33:53 So I I I think the parallels you just mapped out there with the activity theory, the levels that Yeah, remember those old days of studying that trying to figure it out.
11:34:03 It's more just an accident I didn't Go back to it again, because I really got caught up with this This whole other literature is extremely rich, and powerful on narrative narrative.
11:34:12 Narrative theory. and i'm trying to incorporate here, and it's not I don't think it's antithetical.
11:34:19 Yeah, Okay, Jim, I'd like to bye myself if I just very briefly here Iden asks that we post that, and I will i'll send around to everybody who's on the list a copy of
11:34:36 the literature equipment. for living. but I'm also gonna send it around a chapter that my daughter and I wrote on Bartlett.
11:34:47 And I think there's I just have a paragraph here that I think in a way, maybe speaks to couple of things that have been said here.
11:34:57 So i'm just gonna it. They it starts off by talking about schematic conventionalization and then the social context of cognition.
11:35:05 That's the section of the chapter and It points out that in cultural, in various forms of a cultural psychology.
11:35:13 It is widely assumed that you're talking about something like a distributed organism.
11:35:18 You're talking about a distributed process, and we quote gene lave definition, which I, you know is very colorful, so that the boundaries of cognition and the environment and her terms cognition is stretched across mind body activity and
11:35:34 the setting, and written whenever it was 20 years ago. It refers to Ed.
11:35:40 Hutchins, and ideas about distributed cognition which were relatively new.
11:35:44 Then it refers to the work of Dark Edwards and Dave Middleton, and for people interested in this area of research, I really recommend their writings very interesting writings, and this is just a summary as noted by Edwards, in Middleton and Middleton
11:36:00 and Charles Crook. that distributed cognition is precisely the way in which partly conceived of schemas in his book on remembering.
11:36:11 So that's the first. The first connection right so that Bartlett is going to try to do what the distributed cognition people are trying to do, although he adopted the term from Head, who is a psych neurology type from whom it definitely
11:36:26 had in in the brain sort of in existence, partly, quite explicitly, indicate that heads use of the term sales to indicate that the results of past experience are actively influencing us.
11:36:42 All the time, and that these influences are best thought of as in as organized settings.
11:36:46 And I think that that wording is in terms of the whole issue of inside and outside, and that you're talking about is some sort of dialectical process that's going on here.
11:36:57 Everybody's trying to talk about it that idea that the the sum of the past.
11:37:02 Yes, you're thinking of it as organized settings helps a lot, I think, to speak to how it gets to be habitual, because in an organized settings, everybody, if you've been there, everybody knows what the hell to do and they
11:37:16 don't have to think about it at that level so just to continue to finish up ski bought it in such a view Are not knowledge structure stored in the brain minds of individuals for the interpretation of experience but functional
11:37:32 properties of adaptations between persons and their physical and social environments.
11:37:37 And so I think that that's a I think that covers a lot of what you're you know the concern is here.
11:37:45 Yeah. and i'll send this around too, if if people find it people find it.
11:37:50 Yeah. One thing I say about Bartlett who is a great hero in my view, you know.
11:37:58 Hey? it's just another great thought provoker but it's interesting schema, and any kind of what there's no scheme, and his notion he doesn't use narrative.
11:38:10 He's suspect he's very suspicious by the way of hallbox notion of collective memory, because he thinks you're living going into collective unconscious or something and I hall blocks different things on different days but
11:38:20 I don't think he did but what's interesting about Bardline.
11:38:26 He Presupposes alternative narratives to what he's looking at. You know the ghost the most famous thing you probably did, he said.
11:38:34 You know this just doesn't make sense to my English subjects here, and so it's not part way.
11:38:40 It's partly my question to Kahneman as well.
11:38:43 Okay, So you've shown a schema that's really important it works.
11:38:47 But what you've done you've snuck in here one schema that you never talk about that is what organizes things for his British subjects, because the British subjects are reading it so they don't have to they just
11:38:58 got it, you know and they recognize I can't understand this other story organization what it really calls for at least not what it really calls for.
11:39:06 But I think it's interesting here. is to get into these tools and much more depth to understand.
11:39:11 Well, what exactly was it in the English that camebridge undergraduates? narrative tools that conflicted with the other one?
11:39:21 Why can't we understand that other story and so again? It reflects the more deeper interest in bringing narrative into this?
11:39:30 Because that's a very rich literature from literature most literary studies.
11:39:33 For the most part. And and also I just want to mention on imagination, You know, collected memory is something.
11:39:42 Memory is about the past, basically, but anxiety and and imagination or things, you know.
11:39:47 And We're talking a lot about that's about the future, and one of the things has been pretty interesting is in the last 10 years or so.
11:39:53 There's first and neuroscience study so you started show you use the same neural networks to remember a past event like a birthday party in the past, and to imagine a birthday party in the future. So Wow!
11:40:07 Maybe that's no accent maybe that's it the big deal.
11:40:12 And so now there's growing up this issue of mental time travel so, and and People like tooling andle tooling talked about this some years ago.
11:40:20 But now it's turning into a little bit of cottage industry neurologically, maybe some of the same tools.
11:40:26 But we're also using the same cultural tools to make sense of the past and in the future.
11:40:35 And for me, this is really crucial, because the other issues, like global climate change or threat of nuclear annihilation.
11:40:42 The thing we can do. We can understand the future kind of, but we cannot be mobilized around it.
11:40:47 We can. we kill over the past? all the time you know about memories and insults and humiliations? But we cannot mobilize ourselves very well at all.
11:40:57 It's like pulling teeth to get us mobilized about a future imagination.
11:41:01 You can have imagination, but It's not serving the purpose. We have to have a server, so that for me has become more of an interesting issue as well.
11:41:08 Umhm
11:41:13 Comments. I'm not, I mean who feels underrepresented here in terms of the comments.
11:41:24 Nobody, Mike. there is aiden raising up his hand I didn't see it up against the background.
11:41:32 There. I I thank you very much, Maria. thank you Maria. that's worse.
11:41:42 Thank you so much for this wonderful discussion and readings.
11:41:44 Mike also. I I just want to carry us from the spontological discussion to epistemological discussion.
11:41:50 They may not be separated, but let's follow this
11:41:56 Fragments isn't elements and what is the unit of analysis
11:42:04 Yeah, your work. So let's say when your work when you're studying collective memories that the worship Very easy.
11:42:13 How do you, defined the boundaries of collective memory so that we can understand them?
11:42:19 And we can utilize them for system information, other stuff. good question.
11:42:25 Nobody calls me Dr. Works, and that's a really mad at me first of all.
11:42:31 So. anyway. i'm not mad at you I just call me Jim, then.
11:42:34 Yeah, it's a very good question and again.
11:42:38 My tendency would be to duck the question in the sense that in general, I say I i'm interested in the psychological end of this in the sense.
11:42:47 So I take the appointment using a cultural tool a narrative That's the unit of analysis.
11:42:51 But that doesn't do it very much good what's more interesting, I think, is to look for striking cases of collective memory and figure out how they came about. So I I had one favorite call collective memory international memory and where to find
11:43:06 it where you find it is where you get 2 nations arguing over what really happened in the past, and and they cannot, you know, just cannot understand one another.
11:43:16 We have, we still have elements of that going on the United States over the Civil War.
11:43:21 Was it war American, second American Independence for whatever and so, and and we find it very frustrating.
11:43:28 And and just can't get so my inclination would be dig into a case of that.
11:43:33 It could be any number of things. looking at Monica Martinez, the University of Texas, who recently written great things about how the Texas Rangers are remembered in the Mexican Texas Mexico American
11:43:50 community. So yeah, she's an historian and it's Not so.
11:43:56 I can't become an historian overnight but I look for cases like that, and say, what do we have to have that makes it so impossible for us to discuss this in the way of habits, narrative templates and things like
11:44:06 that so my inclination would always be to look for these cases.
11:44:10 Look for 2 communities or nations collide over their memory and then figure.
11:44:16 What do you need for units of analysis to be useful because you don't just want to utilize you want one that distinguishes one side of the other from the group conflict?
11:44:25 Thank you, Jim. One follow question. What if, we use that?
11:44:31 Those unit of analysis and analysis for system transformation in our work. Multiple stakeholders, multiple communities in schools was specifically, for example, American Indian community and the wise settlers are attending same school teachers educators administrators.
11:44:49 Committee members are coming together and design the future of school, which means that their memory work is not over there to real.
11:44:56 And for us, as researchers understand, we are in that process.
11:44:59 They are making making the memory working around memory to determine the future.
11:45:05 Using that memory, but for the future building future making.
11:45:09 And in that regard cash, what do you recommend for us?
11:45:15 Well, I think you probably know more than I do because you've been closer to ground on that one.
11:45:18 But it it does again. It depends, what the ideal outcome would be.
11:45:24 The aspiration. I was talking to a young woman the other day who one of our students here at Washington University.
11:45:31 Her mother is from a Chinese, very traditional Chinese family, who come over and lived in the States.
11:45:37 Their whole lives are very professional, and her mother then married an Irish guy who ended up being an anesthesiologist.
11:45:43 So he's pretty educated, too, he might say and Chinese parent the mother.
11:45:50 Grandmother, this own, this young woman's mother, because she married outside of a racial category.
11:45:56 So you say Wow, that's that's really something and so for her, though what's interesting in this respect for the Chinese mother, she did not speak to her own child and mandarin and she said when people ask you when you
11:46:09 walk in a Chinese chinatown. are you Chinese you say no i'm in America. and so this is an old aspiration for immigrant.
11:46:17 I mean it's maybe outdated you know it it prices people and all kinds of ways to be sure.
11:46:21 But anyway, that's one kind of aspiration you could also what we obviously really wanted is we could say we're American, and we were made up of a polyglot polynomial.
11:46:33 Group, and we're proud of that that's what makes it strong. So diversity is what gives us strength rather than holds away from. and that's where we're really really stuck these days convincing people that we get
11:46:44 strength through diversity. instead. Some people are ruining things, you know.
11:46:49 You go back to stuff that's being said you know on fox News and elsewhere about you know need to let any more people into the United States because they're gonna rob my groups on this voting this can go back to
11:47:01 Madison ground 1,960, he wrote a best-selling book called the Passing of the Great Race, who was a big friend of
11:47:10 Teddy Roosevelt of the Carnegie and others.
11:47:12 This is just natural mainstream thinking at the time prestige.
11:47:17 You know the power structure today, it's just unbelievable.
11:47:19 If you read this kind of thing, so that under you know, these narratives also continue to learn in the background.
11:47:24 Sometimes i'm tempted to talk about these things in area templates this you know Zombie narratives.
11:47:32 You think they're dead, but in this narrative template form?
11:47:35 Usually you can't say this stuff out love but if you can reason accordance with it.
11:47:39 See, Where did that come from? Well, it's pretty it's not dead.
11:47:46 Okay, Andrew has his hand up and I I think i'll we'll go to that, Jim.
11:47:53 You might take a second, and just scan the chat quite because there's some interesting questions in the chat also.
11:48:01 And Maria asked also for an opportunity to make a comment.
11:48:04 So go, Andrew, and then Maria, and Then we'll see Jim, this has been great, thank you, so much.
11:48:13 This is really interesting. I study ethnogenesis and youth development in South Africa.
11:48:23 And so you know, this this is pretty interesting i've also been doing a deep dive lately into narrative theory for some work. i'm doing on ethnodrama.
11:48:34 So there's some method a lot of interests for me here as well.
11:48:38 But I think my main question let's just say that my questions in my comments.
11:48:44 I really enjoyed the paper by the way. kind of cluster around kind of like the intellectual map, I suppose, of where where your framework fits in with others, and maybe i'll start by saying that so I was a
11:49:02 student of Morris Block at London School of Economics, and he was a huge fan of Bartlett, and I know his students have used a similar framework as well, but he talked about how to use those ideas in an ethnographic
11:49:21 context. So, for example, the idea of chunking and So i'm I was kind of led to wonder if some of that work might be of interest or kind of work its way into into your analysis.
11:49:37 I had a couple of other questions, too. Just briefly. Have you talked or thought about Quinn and Strauss cultural cultural models?
11:49:46 And then maybe this some more kind of general questions. about habitat Borgia, or even just like what about discourse doesn't discourse does a lot of work. and it it seems to me to link better to power as
11:50:03 Well, so those are just some some general thoughts. but thanks again.
11:50:11 Those are great. I already said that narrative tools have this property of having a plot which has an ending which tells us what the things mean.
11:50:19 Coming up with that's a commonplace and narrative theory.
11:50:23 But an important thing is unlike attitudes or concepts, or sometimes models.
11:50:28 We think narratives are true, and that's where we really run into conflict.
11:50:32 You know I just got through telling you what really happened you know I had this wonderful discussion.
11:50:37 Once. I'll totally I open a discussion with a young Russian when I was young, too, and he asked me one night did a party.
11:50:43 We're having a Why did Truman bomb Japan twice and 95?
11:50:48 He said. Well, the war was almost ended. but there's gonna be a huge amount of bloodshed, and Japanese maybe more than Americans.
11:50:55 So we He used the bombs to stop the war and shocked them to stop the war, and it worked.
11:50:59 Hey? let me say this is one of those cases you said you can't really believe that everybody knows he used the bomb to intimidate style.
11:51:07 No other reason, and there's historical evidence back up both of these.
11:51:09 But we walk around with these different narratives these are specific narratives about a particular event, and the thing that is, they're not attitudes.
11:51:18 I couldn't just at that point. Say Well, I guess you just have a different attitude, you know.
11:51:23 Immediately you put your boxing gloves on say Well, no that's just not true, and we try to find narratives with facts. Facts don't work against narratives in a lot of ways in this sense the
11:51:32 plot line is not a fact, So that gives those tools a specific thing, and it distinguishes, you know.
11:51:38 Bar. Do I have it? Just all those ideas are fabulous But I'm really focused on How do we get in these conflicts, and how might we get out of them?
11:51:45 And one of the drawbacks you know a constraint it's not. yeah.
11:51:51 I. it affords in the positive sense. but a constraint of narrative is, we think, they're true.
11:51:57 We really fight over this. Of course, alden think about the discussion we have in America with trump's, supporters and things like that.
11:52:02 It's just not true so it's not Well, you have a different opinion, you know you betterre belonging to different party, you know.
11:52:09 So there's something different about these narrative tool The narrative tools that really lead us down some bad paths.
11:52:14 I wonder, I wonder if ideology might be a good adjunct?
11:52:19 Then, rather than this course. Yeah, Well, but why we defend these narratives has to do with broader you know power and society power of others more norms and things, to be sure, But where we get hung up i'm really in
11:52:34 that sense focusing on something much more focused namely how we get in these fights, and why can't we get out of them?
11:52:42 And why can't we recognize how we got there how where we are?
11:52:47 Thanks, Maria. Did you have an additional comment Well, yeah it's possible.
11:52:58 Yeah, actually to me, the paper and the talk by Jim, really illustrate the well-known phrase by the French psychologist.
11:53:08 Gabriel reveled a long about the splendor and misery of schemes.
11:53:12 But what confuses me still a little bit is that schemes are considered in the context of producing habits which belong to the procedural memory, and narratives are definitely not about Procedural Memory schemes are just
11:53:34 everywhere, and basically but nicer used this concept it was used for all kinds of interaction. But the world to incorporate just a collection of new experience and prediction of what's going on further just to include all possible
11:54:00 cognitive processes within the same framework But here. the I probably lack of understanding how narratives are being produced, based on schemes due to habits or well, i'm still about this 3 side interaction what I would probably
11:54:24 add to this discussion is an analysis of so-called collective memory illusions, because illusions usually help us to crack the mechanisms.
11:54:38 For example, if we're taken to account the famous Nelson Mandela effect the collective memory of how he was.
11:54:48 He died in prison like 30 years before. It really happened it's probably a hint that we should take a look at this checking up with others, which also leads us. to the discussion of the so-called shared memory which
11:55:04 was really a pretty well-started couple when a wife where husband doesn't know somebody's birthday, but definitely knows that the wife knows it, and it was really well started in Google effects of memory siders, but not in the
11:55:20 framework of the collective memory, and here, probably what might be over, use our status mentioned in the paper like those based on the culture, city-iated cognition framework by Df.
11:55:40 Now, oysterman, which is basically the shaking up of your including memory habits, ways, the wider can't cultural context.
11:55:52 But what i'm really interested in is probably like a graphic model of how all these things are interrelated.
11:56:05 Good luck. Yeah, just one reflection, a quick reflection on that.
11:56:08 You just said there collected memory, although individual memory Hello, this other thing as well. have you go back to Andrew James?
11:56:17 He's in memory. it's not just about the past it's about my past, same in national memory.
11:56:21 This part of an identity project memory no national memory and that's partly what makes us who we are right, Peter, your you gotta turn up I had to figure out how to unmute So
11:56:39 Jimmy earlier. He referred to jonathan hate and I don't know if the rest of you are familiar with John, but he's a very interested in the emotional and emotional life.
11:56:50 He's actually an evolutionary psychologist but he's looked at the role of emotion in in all facets of life.
11:56:57 And that's. something I haven't heard you talk or write about, because because you were contrasting, say the maga version of American history and mine.
11:57:07 And what hate would say is that there are deeply that these are grounded in deep emotions.
11:57:13 More than that that that the narratives are built on so i'm i'm just wondering if I cause I just haven't heard you talk about a motion except in a passing reference to hate which means you're
11:57:24 familiar with that. so could you do? Do you see a role for that?
11:57:31 In in your your sense of narrative and memory. Yeah, but only indirectly. Yeah.
11:57:36 No, the main thing I take from hate is the notion that so much of our moral judgment is done.
11:57:42 You don't even know you're doing it the form of fast thinking.
11:57:46 He does use slightly different terms is grounded in motion. But yeah, we get really exercise about the quickest way to make this exercise a lot of times just to tell us the narrative. that we say just is not true.
11:57:57 And so and that's this is related but it does it doesn't look for ground again there in the emotion per se.
11:58:03 I guess. Yeah, Several several people had questions about the links here to emotion.
11:58:09 So that's a that's a good question to bring up here.
11:58:12 You might Peter put right there a reference or something and put it in chat for John Hay, so people won't know it, and the the inscription at the bottom doesn't spell it correctly who is
11:58:26 who has not spoken here? let's see mariana what are your thoughts here?
11:58:36 Good chuck and italia up there too Oh, i'm sorry I i'm having trouble with the hands.
11:58:38 I'm gonna come back to you mariana and i'm gonna go to Natalie because I see hers and chuck also.
11:58:44 Yes, Okay, Natalia. Then chuck. and then Marianna, maybe Yeah, thank you.
11:58:49 Zoom. I have a question and and I I totally agree with this part of the narrative to present the truth Right?
11:59:01 That's, the that I think that's kind of a key or how this narrative work on us.
11:59:08 But I going back to Bruno's idea I I got it when I read Bruno classic paper that there's 2 types of minds.
11:59:15 One is a narrative mind in society. But how about this paradigmatic minds, like sort of connected to systemic thinking and concept, and braggotsky and the good ski idea that if only if only we can
11:59:28 educate people so to be critical system and minders, Maybe narratives will cease to be that powerful because it seems to me I mean, I always thought about paradigmatic idea as a ideal, for society.
11:59:44 And you only talk about the habits and narrative months only, as if there's no other ways to contemplate.
11:59:52 And why i'm under no problems and stuff no brutal distinction.
11:59:57 He used it for a while. It kind of didn't use as much.
12:00:02 I find that really useful, and I do use it because it's important to understand.
12:00:04 There are ways to represent the past without using narratives, for example, or so called chronicles, that some historians have philosophers of history.
12:00:15 Talk about Hayden white but once you put things in a narrative, they take on a particular form with their own logic.
12:00:21 Bruno was also talking about this paradigmatic or logical, mathematical kind of forms of cognition.
12:00:29 They don't they're not narratively organized in a sense you don't have a plot.
12:00:32 You don't have an ending you know if you learn the 2 plus 2 equals 4.
12:00:37 And you ask well what came first, what came second to this is in the timeless, where whereas narratives always take temporal events, organize them, grasping together into a plot, and it's just a different way, of thinking it's much
12:00:48 more natural that the other also you don't have to go to school never seen a society.
12:00:53 We've encountered the didn't use narratives plenty. don't use calculus to this day increasing in the us, I guess.
12:01:01 But anyway, the so yeah I think that's really important and I think that would be great, and that's in a sense we're all trying to do here.
12:01:09 Use some kind of abstracted analytic thinking that could get us out of the brutality thinking.
12:01:17 But that's again, where you just run up that's what I said, and just in passing a couple of times, our first inclination when we hear something, and they say it's narrative this is just not true, if we bring out
12:01:27 facts, we do logically deductive thinking show percentage of these people to believe this.
12:01:33 It is pretty ineffective in many of the cases.
12:01:37 I see again, because narrative and there you know national narratives or identity projects.
12:01:43 And so you're asking people to go through logic trump the logic.
12:01:48 I don't like to say a trump space but it logic overcomes national, you know.
12:01:52 Narrative is, is it very hard process? and you, By the way, narrative truth?
12:01:58 Other people. looked at this in philosophy, narrative truth is not like logically deductive truths.
12:02:02 You cannot do the ending of a narrative it's a judgment in a contium sense.
12:02:09 It's somebody has to make a judgment. How you press these things together, and that leads us to power them.
12:02:15 But those are not things that are going so it's a very at least by contrast.
12:02:17 And I'm a little wary about how effective we could be to use this really abstract logical analysis to fight the power narratives.
12:02:26 I wish I work, but that's where I am chuck Oh, you're muted you're muted sorry Here you go.
12:02:41 So in the thanks for this very, very, very interesting discussion.
12:02:47 And it certainly helped me place your work and the issues more clearly within the Psychological literature, which I have a less deep understanding of.
12:03:04 But one thing that I have a lot of questions I've had a lot of thoughts throughout this and I'm trying to like just stay to one on one train
12:03:25 Okay, So I think this discussion has been a lot of It's been concerned about issues of national identity and national cultures, and the geopolitical conflicts were engaged in
12:03:45 And I imagine, although I don't know that collective memory often is formed around that, too, because of the kind of obvious problems that that creates
12:03:58 But collective memory happens in all kinds of collectivities, and not just the national ones.
12:04:08 And but even within the national ones the cases that can come up are the ones where there are longstanding national or imperial histories.
12:04:24 So the Chinese one is not just the humiliation of couple of centuries, but it goes back 2,000 years to this, not just the forming of the Empire, but all the structures that were built to to to
12:04:42 construct and maintain the Empire, which were then humiliated.
12:04:49 Russia, which has a particular religious history as as you tell sing it's role that that's tied to its history of empire, which is a little bit shorter.
12:05:02 But but denied. the United States has certain couple of centuries of the American experiment.
12:05:14 And 2 belongs to that American experiment. And what is the
12:05:22 Moral ethical grounding of that experiment in my question, which was like Miss Misguide, and I thank you for your kind of quiet, informing that me that in your your opening statement, but nonetheless, I was trying
12:05:44 to one of the tactics of zoom, was trying to move it away.
12:05:48 Move the discussion away from these issues. Politics so i'm gonna ask you to either do that or take a very recent nation with There's a the creation of a new consciousness or a change of conditions that have led to a
12:06:12 readjustment by day, and the not just of identity, not of the narrative particular, but the patterns of habits of narrative that you see so that we can see different kinds of example which made them speak to the
12:06:27 questions of either. one can speak to how how do we change what seemed to be very large conflicts of not national, but in the United States it's multiple cultural conflict conflicts of identity, either way go either
12:06:48 way, but open it up beyond this longstanding national configuration, supported by education, supported by history, supported by churches. Couple of good points there for me.
12:07:04 One. A lot of people say, Well, you know the russians they believe that because that's all they have ever been taught.
12:07:08 Although i've been in a Chinese us Chinese student seminar once, where we I ask people how many of you here know about the 1999 bombing at the Bell grade Embass of the Chinese
12:07:20 embassy in Belgrade, always trying to use.
12:07:22 Raise your hand. No American knew what that was and the change were upset.
12:07:26 They couldn't believe that it's an insult not to know about it.
12:07:29 And then the answer they had was probably because it's been controlled out of your media at that time.
12:07:34 It's 10 years ago, so they could look on Google.
12:07:36 And oh, yeah, we have it there, But just not so in general.
12:07:39 I think a lot of these things operate more from the ground up.
12:07:43 There are ways of continuing narratives of groups that don't, and it's not just top down the States.
12:07:50 Don't decide this station only. Besides, so much if they're compatibility. if they have compatibility with underlying national narratives of the group, always a negotiated, process you have going there.
12:08:02 So. but if you look at our case in the us where there's kind of just raise all kinds of hell the 1619 project, it's very much a narrative project she's not just saying you know we need to add 16
12:08:13 90, we can, instead of starting 1629 at 1619, we'll have the same narrative.
12:08:19 No you change the beginning of the narrative you're changing the whole story.
12:08:23 That's what she's arguing for obviously in the 1,619 project.
12:08:28 So here you see it again. Another kind of narrative struggle right within the us. and then there's small ones that everywhere.
12:08:36 So yeah, these things are constantly trueocking for position and if you bring it home, then you realize, Oh, yeah, that's really political, isn't it?
12:08:43 So I don't know if any of these are a political I don't know if how about the question of in the United States.
12:08:51 Some people grow up in families thinking that business people, other people think that go to their professionals, and these this is a
12:09:00 Other people, you know, have different above affiliate with different collectivities, and see importance of those collectivities and their role in those collectivities.
12:09:12 We might interpret them as political ultimately. but you know it it they don't manifest themselves directly as political.
12:09:20 So how would you? how does your narrative, or how does your yeah?
12:09:25 How does your argument bear on that? And does that open up a different a different way of poaching?
12:09:36 Some of these questions. Yeah, I think it touched it back on somebody said earlier, I don't you know first of all those are not the very strong sense collected memories that, namely, but your imagination of who you are and who you'd like
12:09:49 to be that's part of a narrative the kind of the stockpile of narrative templates we have in our society.
12:09:58 So, so you can imagine yourself becoming professional or something. if you just take a case like living your life as a as a accomplished, proud, gay person.
12:10:10 That narrative template was that narrative was just not available 100 years ago. You could only you know you couldn't make sense of your life, or, if you could, it would not be a good way.
12:10:17 So these are they do change, and if we but if we don't have those tools.
12:10:23 We sometimes think, you know, I had to find myself, and I struggled for so long.
12:10:26 Finally I found my own story and i'm gonna write it i'm gonna tell you about. but a lot of all of us.
12:10:32 We're using off the shelf technology in one way or another.
12:10:34 It changes over time due to political struggles, etc but it's, you know. neither of my grandmothers could ever imagine being divorced.
12:10:41 Neither one of them was, but neither could I ever imagine it.
12:10:45 It was legal for them to be divorced but there's no story for them.
12:10:49 They can help them make sense in their life just simply was not available.
12:10:52 So it's. taking this other things these aspirational narratives also help make us help us make sense of our own lives.
12:11:01 But those change. So there is change in system here. but it takes huge amount of effort just within local identity issues within a single society to make that happen which is not a good reason not to fight for it.
12:11:15 But but where we tend to get locked in no big surprise is when somebody has a different narrative, and they tell you No, that is not a story you can have, because it's just not true.
12:11:25 We'll get really locked in i'm no prantine francine excuse me. There are a couple of people who haven't had a chance to speak I don't want to make sure that they get an
12:11:36 opportunity. Here is a case study to take a good look at, and how putin won over touch.
12:11:47 Now recently That's all I want to say great Okay, Brian, I said, I would ask you for contribution, and then maybe Patricia, i'm just looking around at people who haven't had a chance to speak yet.
12:12:01 You're be. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Well, thank you for the opportunity. I think this wonderful conversation, and thanks Jim, for sharing your your work.
12:12:12 I was very interested in in the latest things you were bringing up on.
12:12:17 How this narratives change, and how they're the stockpile of narratives, and it's this constant struggle to to find some legitimacy to transfer to make that acceptable in a community in my case I study
12:12:34 like the the collective memory of the latest dictatorship in your way, and how I i've used your framework, thinking of narrative 10 plates, one of the ones that it's dominant is the 2
12:12:49 demons explanation for dictatorship that there was the military and the guerrilla warfare, and they produced all the that the trouble and all the blame and responsibilities displaced to this 2 social actors
12:13:05 that was transformed for a period of time but now it's reason resurgent again.
12:13:13 And I was interested in in the concept you just mentioned.
12:13:16 Briefly this zombie narratives. How this some narratives that we seem to have overcome?
12:13:24 How do they come back? How does it get new life and and never go away?
12:13:30 And and it's regardless of ideological position because they're hmm available for everyone in the community and and different political ideologies use the same explanatory model who to make sense of new experiences using
12:13:51 old narratives so on the one hand, i'd like you to talk a little bit more of this zombie narratives, because I think it's interesting also thinking in in terms of the Irish case or maybe the even
12:14:05 in the Us. how donald trump was using this make America great again.
12:14:11 It's also appealing back to that idea and then the other thing.
12:14:18 I was wondering if so, how do you politically can do some work in terms of narrative, to to offer new options, or to question this narratives.
12:14:35 If it's not through logic or facts what can you do are there narrative tools that we can use to to deconstruct this established narratives?
12:14:46 Or is it only a political struggle? No. I think we can be convincing, oftentimes encourage students to think about.
12:14:54 If you want it, have an argument over narrative truth.
12:14:59 Think about what 2 lawyers good lawyers do in litigation, in case you they both office with send fax in front of the the same jury.
12:15:07 They say, Look, this happened, and then he did that, and she died.
12:15:11 And so what happened here, and one has one story the other has a different story.
12:15:16 They're both compatible. this is where the mystery come, they're most compatible with the facts.
12:15:21 But what is much more, we say convincing coherent holds together.
12:15:24 Now that's a kind of logic kind of going back to the issue of narrative mentality as opposed to logical, mathematical deductive and so it's it's something like that that
12:15:36 we can do in a fairly peaceful way I should also mention No, they that it's I don't know this about Uruguay. it's it's really interesting, case but I suspect that of these national narrative
12:15:49 templates, and it depends on how abstract you get, because in most abstract it's only one narrative template in world, maybe, or something.
12:15:56 But I suspect there's a toolbox. of these it's only like as 10 or 12, and so we can understand the invasion of the exposure in any enemy.
12:16:09 We? So you touched the American after 9 11, they said.
12:16:11 Dance just like pearl harbor so we can make sense of that.
12:16:14 But we don't do it so it's then it becomes an issue, and this is a contextual issue of what it in the context makes some people bring this up all the time.
12:16:23 And we differ in that respect right I'm gonna I'm gonna think I had to bring the discussion to an end here.
12:16:32 We've gone for an hour and a half we've lost some people in different parts of the world.
12:16:37 I just invite, really want to invite everybody to feel free to follow up here, and i'm i'm going to try to get this posted on cultural practices as soon as I can You can.
12:16:50 Check it there. but you can just take the last message I sent and reply all, and i'm going to take that last message, and i'm going to send you a couple of reprints.
12:17:00 It's things that came up here if you would send me or send to the group things that you would suggest.
12:17:07 Prince Jean had a suggestion for a relevant reading.
12:17:09 I have the suggestion for it. Jim has a suggestion for it.
12:17:14 Hopefully, we could put those together on cultural practice along with this coffee hour as a resource for people later on, to follow up as just one closing thing, because I think it speaks to a lot of what to do about it.
12:17:27 When I really asked you to do is to watch at least the second session of America and the holocaust by Ken Burns, which played for the first time last night, and which has brings back the memory of America first when it
12:17:45 was Charles Lindbergh, and out and out Nazi and the stuff he was saying up against Roosevelt in ways that we've lost the memory of, but which makes the Maga phenomenon just the same old same old
12:17:59 that my dad was fighting at 1,938 when I was born, and it is so similar, you know that it's shocking to the extent to which it's there But ken burns I think is a
12:18:12 response. it's public money and private money that goes together. to speak memory to power, and I it's very effective here instead. San Diego. It's gonna make me start a campaign to ask why is Lindbergh Field Our Airport named
12:18:29 Lindbergh Field when it's a shameful name to give to an airport in the United States of America.
12:18:35 That's an effect that has on me where i'm just saying, Hey, communication students here let's start a riot about Why, this thing is called Lindbergh Field.
12:18:45 This guy was death on wheels, so I think that there are agency.
12:18:50 Is here, and a lot of you've shown agency in this conversation.
12:18:55 I really appreciate it, and we'll see each other online and maybe next month.